of a programme of Social Action on Christian principles entitled :
"Towards a Christian Social Order"
This programme, " Towards a Christian Social Order," to which allusion on our correspondence page has often been made, is the work of Captain T. W. C. Curd, Organising Secretary of the Catholic Truth Society since 1927.
In an interview with the Editor of the Catholic Herald, Captain Curd has stated that the programme has been blessed by members of the Hierarchy and approved by moral theologians.
The relation between this newspaper and those who are (3 actively supporting this programme as a basis for political and social action is discussed in an editorial on page 4. A letter from Captain Curd appears on page 2.
The interview printed below (which should be read in conjunction with the points of the programme printed opposite) gives the story of the movement and discusses certain difficulties and suggestions made by the Catholic Herald.
I understand, said the Editor, that your programme has been studied by members of the Hierarchy, many well-known Catholic sociologists and vetted by moral theologians, but at the sante time that you want it to be sponsored by the Catholic laity and indeed by anybody, whether Catholic or not, to whom it appeals?
That is so, answered Captain Curd. Ni.' fewer than tour archbishops and
four bishops have written giving their approval, and short of formally submitting this practical and concrete programme for ecclesiastical approval (a step which would accidentally impart to it an ecclesiastical character, whereas it is essentially meant to be a lay movement), every possible effort has been made to assure the organisers that it is consistent with Catholic teaching and that it, in fact, makes a personal appeal to individual members of the Hierarchy.
I should describe the substance of their message to me as being " This is a matter for the laity. Thank goodness they arc doing something. It's up to you."
CHRISTIAN UNION
You have no doubt, the Editor continued. read references in this paper to Christian Union, a phrase we have used to indicate the desirability of convinced Christians of all denominations OW indeed non-Christians who are convinced of the desirability of initiating a nrove»tent for social order rather than disorder) working together for moral and .social reform. Would you offer this programme as a concrete point of departure for such co-operative work?
I would, and in fact it has already been done. For example in Norwich the programme has been put forward through the initiative of Fr. Fressenges over the names of prominent citizens, Catholic and nonCatholic, with the view of ultimately taking political action on its basis, and the results have already been splendid. I hope that this example will be followed in other places.
AVOIDING ENDLESS TALK
You have stated your programme in definite terms. Does this mean that you intend to stick to it as a whole or that you put it forward as a mere basis for discussion?
It seems to me that we need something definite and concrete to be taken as a whole. To make it a mere basis for diseussion would lead to endless talk and nothing done. At the same time it can certainly be improved and amended in the light of discussion and experience.
CLEARING OBSCURITY
I asked you this question because there are certain points that seem to us obscure or equivocal, and in giving the programme to our readers I should like to comment on these difficulties. Do you mind running over the points with me with a view to clarifying these points?
With pleasure.
I imagine that everyone will be agreed about point 1. But point 2, as it reads, might be interpreted as something very near to the liberal and socialist fallacy that a social order can be based upon a doctrine of natural rights alone. You nowhere refer to the freedom of mum and the obligation that rests upon him to play Iris proper part in the community if he is to enjoy his natural rights. After the words " natural right" I should add " which he can abuse turd lose." This is surely of the first intportance, as it really underlines the essential difference between Christianity and modern political theory.
I agree, but the programme taken as a whole involves this, and I have had to sacrifice something for the sake of keeping the points short.
In{ the same way. in point 4, I should have liked to see the word opportunity italicised in the last sentence.
That can easily be done.
ARE STRIKES TO BE LEGAL?
As we are not now dealing with points of practical application I will trot ask you If you have any views as to how the interests of the consumer in point 4 can be safeguarded equally si,ith those of the employer and the employee. I see moreover that the consumer is to be represented in the National Guilds described in point 5. But as to these there is a much more -important question to ask. You do not mention the right to strike. Would you make strikes and lock-outs illegal?
In my view round-table conferences in every industry should enable strikes and lock-outs to be definitely eliminated and made illegal. The right to strike presupposes that no other and better remedy for securing the workers' rights exists. The organisation of National Guilds along the lines indicated would afford an ectrally effective and yet more just safeguarding of the workers' rights.
Do you then condemn strikes?
Not in the present order, nor would there be any question of removing the right to strike until the Guild system is enacted and proved, with particular reference to the safeguarding of the workers.
With regard 10 the first sentence in point 6, I should make the same criticism as for point 2, And what do you mean by " the accumulation of great wealth"?
I should say that no man has the right to dispose on his own responsibility (i.e., as owner rather than administrator) of more wealth than he himself can reasonably consume and personally enjoy.
£5,000 a year? Though, mind you, plenty of good work has been done through large fortunes which would otherwise never have been accomplished.
Certainly not more than £5,000. One must not put the figure too low because some profit incentive must remain. The evil done by large fortunes is surely greater than the good.
Flow would that affect primate charity?
Surely it would make for private charity, for true charity means giving away what you could otherwise enjoy. not disposing of large alms which are in any case sheer surplus.
RISING FOOD PRICES
In regard to point 9, are you prepared to see the price of food (the worktnan's breakfast) rising considerably as a result of your agricultural policy?
Yes. A better division of wealth and distribution of goods as well as guaranteed family wages would more than offset any increased costs.
BANKING REFORMS
Point 10 is a point dear to Catholic reformers, I know. What does it mean in practice? Would you put an end to the banking system?
No, there is no question of eliminating the banks and bankers as administrators, a matter in which their experience would be essential.
What it comes to is this. After the war, for example, there may he five million unemployed and a tremendous amount of work to be done. It should not be left to the banks or the irresponsible financial powers to bring the two together at vast usurious profits to themselves and with the ultimate intention of securing high profits for those in with them.
In other words, I would remove the ultimate power of any private individuals and private corporations to direct the flow of credit with a view to private profit rather than the good of society.
FAMILY WAGE
Point 11 may make you a few enemies. Does it involve women tvho remain in industry being paid less?
Quite the contrary. They must be paid the same as men on the principle of the family wage. Such high payment would in fact militate against their employment and thus help to achieve their return to the home. But I agree that this reform in particular requires thoroughgoing re-education in the Christian teaching on the home.
In points 12 and 13 the word " State" is surely ambiguous. The "State" means anything and everything. Would It not be better to talk of " Society Organised along the lines previously laid down"?
That is, of course, what I mean, Not the " State " as it is to-day, hut the " State as it should be.
CHRISTIAN ORDER
/ think that points 15, 16, 17 could be discussed at length. particularly in view of the desirability of enlisting the cooperation of non-Catholics in this work. While all Catholics must of course agree with the last point, would it not be well In say that this is the goal rather than the point of departure? We must admit that many, perhaps the majority in a country
like this no longer believe. What Is to happen to them?
I agree about the difficulty, but we must from the beginning definitely state our ends and what we stand for, since these must condition everything from the beginning. This does not, however, mean that many who may not be prepared to go the whole way will come with us part of the way. Let them be going the right way as far as they do go.
I set the greatest store, Captain Curd ended, on the spiritual side, and I am glad to be able to say that already some twenty large religious communities all over the country are making the success of this movement the object of their daily prayers, and the cause is mentioned daily at the community Mass.